From:	KITANO8 -(KITANO8)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 5:49:00
Message: Body:	Wondering if anyones had any experience with Tivo and 4DTV. Specifically if anyones knows anything about using the Tivo's programming guide to record stuff from a 4DTV receiver.

From:	Turls -(Turls)	TO:	KITANO8

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 7:05:00
Message: Body:	Did you try searching on "tivo" or "replaytv" here or "4dtv" at http://www.avsforum.com? Basically, these devices are just a digital VCR for the 4DTV. And thanks to the lousy 920's 5 timers, its not much good for that either. Moto really missed the boat on getting on board with these boxes.

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 7:05:00

Message:
Body:

Did you try searching on "tivo" or "replaytv" here or "4dtv" at http://www.avsforum.com?

Basically, these devices are just a digital VCR for the 4DTV. And thanks to the lousy 920's 5 timers, its not much good for that either.

Moto really missed the boat on getting on board with these boxes.

From:	Francesco -(SATGUYMTL)	TO:	Turls

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 12:32:00
Message: Body:	I haven't had time to check in with them for a while, but if someone brings it up in the TiVo underground at the AVS TiVo Forums , they will find a way to control the 920/921/922/905/whatever... It all depends on if you can pique a curious hacker's interest. NB "hacker" is being used in its proper meaning.

From:	AVG9999 -(AVG9999)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 3:05:00
Message: Body:	About a year ago I questioned Tivo if they supported 4DTV and they told me at that time they didnt, but may in the future.

From:	Turls -(Turls)	TO:	Francesco

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 6:44:00
Message: Body:	Surely some of the 4Play guys/users have had discussions. When I've brought up the possibility here before it has been poo-pooed because there is no way to go to a specific satellite. I don't follow the AVS Tivo Hacker section, although I've followed the rest of the site pretty closely and nothing has ever been said about any progress being made.

From:	Gary Tait -(TAITG)	TO:	Turls

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 8:06:00
Message: Body:	I think if one could make a box which interperets DirecTV command codes (from a Tivo) into 4DTV codes, it could be done. Not just remote keypresses, but channels codes, so that when the Tivo says 520, it sends the 4DTV keystrokes to go to G9/4

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	Gary Tait

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 1:58:00
Message: Body:	>>> I think if one could make a box which interperets DirecTV command codes (from a Tivo) into 4DTV codes, it could be done. Not just remote keypresses, but channels codes, so that when the Tivo says 520, it sends the 4DTV keystrokes to go to G9/4 <<< Working on it right now, Hope to have something that's works in the future :-) Steve TIVO Sony SA with 145hrs

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 1:58:00

Message:
Body:

>>> I think if one could make a box which interperets DirecTV command codes (from a Tivo) into 4DTV codes, it could be done. Not just remote keypresses, but channels codes, so that when the Tivo says 520, it sends the 4DTV keystrokes to go to G9/4 <<<

Working on it right now, Hope to have something that's works in the future :-)

Steve

TIVO Sony SA with 145hrs

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	KITANO8

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 2:07:00
Message: Body:	I do it with replayTV at my house. Basically I take the serial output from the replayTV and send IR to the 4DTV. I run it off an old laptop right now because I am too lazy to finish porting it to a PIC module, had it running on one but was a little buggy with the IR stuff. Anyhow on the computer it runs 100% flawlessly for the past 8 months or so. I have the replay setup for Directv and have a text file which acts as a map. So the replay puts out say channel 362 serially. the comp. cross refs. it in the table and finds out what 4DTV channel it is and issues the commands. It DOES change birds well and in order to know when the dish is through moving it monitors the voltage on the actuator wires. This is how I do it and it works awesome.

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 2:07:00

Message:
Body:

I do it with replayTV at my house. Basically I take the serial output from the replayTV and send IR to the 4DTV. I run it off an old laptop right now because I am too lazy to finish porting it to a PIC module, had it running on one but was a little buggy with the IR stuff. Anyhow on the computer it runs 100% flawlessly for the past 8 months or so. I have the replay setup for Directv and have a text file which acts as a map. So the replay puts out say channel 362 serially. the comp. cross refs. it in the table and finds out what 4DTV channel it is and issues the commands. It DOES change birds well and in order to know when the dish is through moving it monitors the voltage on the actuator wires. This is how I do it and it works awesome.

From:	Turls -(Turls)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 4:25:00
Message: Body:	That is very cool . . . I envisioned just waiting a certain amount of time between key presses (waiting for satellite moves), but that is a much less kludgy solution. So do you move it to the closest satellite you can that you can get to directly with IR codes and then move it the rest of the way by just using arrow key presses?

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	Turls

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 5:52:00
Message: Body:	Nope, I use just the number keys, basically here it is in a nutshell. 1-Find a show in the much better replay guide :-) and hit return, set a timer whatever, it all works. 2-The receiver sends a the channel on it's serial port which is connected to the laptop com1. 3-The computer looks up that channel in the custom mapping file. 4-The mapping file contains an entry like 37E13E 5-The computer then sends IR out via a pulsed signal on a parallel port pin which goes to an IR modulator I built. It first sends 37 Enter which is T7 Enter. 6-It watches another parallel pin where I have an input switched by actuator voltage. The pin is driven high when the dish is moving. So it waits around til it sees the dish stop. 7-The it pulses out 13Enter for the channel 8-Goes back to wait mode. That is the whole procedure. All sats are entered directly. It took about 12 hours to get my Ir signals just right but like I said before it works flawless now. To get the IR to the 4DTV I used the little stick on ir bud that came with the replaytv. How convenient huh.

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 5:52:00

Message:
Body:

Nope, I use just the number keys, basically here it is in a nutshell.

1-Find a show in the much better replay guide :-) and hit return, set a timer whatever, it all works.
2-The receiver sends a the channel on it's serial port which is connected to the laptop com1.
3-The computer looks up that channel in the custom mapping file.
4-The mapping file contains an entry like 37E13E
5-The computer then sends IR out via a pulsed signal on a parallel port pin which goes to an IR modulator I built. It first sends 37 Enter which is T7 Enter.
6-It watches another parallel pin where I have an input switched by actuator voltage. The pin is driven high when the dish is moving. So it waits around til it sees the dish stop.
7-The it pulses out 13Enter for the channel
8-Goes back to wait mode.
That is the whole procedure. All sats are entered directly. It took about 12 hours to get my Ir signals just right but like I said before it works flawless now. To get the IR to the 4DTV I used the little stick on ir bud that came with the replaytv. How convenient huh.

From:	Mark -(4DTV)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 6:15:00
Message: Body:	I think the question was about satellites that can not be tuned to using direct entry, such as GB. In step 5, you'd have to go to the closest satellite, then move left or right before hitting enter.

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	Mark

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 8:12:00
Message: Body:	I have not really run into that issue, GB is the first G sat I have so just hitting sat 5 enter does the trick for me. I have not seen that issue yet. Keep in mind that I can only map what is on directv 500. That is the only one that put's out serial signals to control a directv box. I do only lose a few though.

From:	Turls -(Turls)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 2:32:00
Message: Body:	Yeah, I was talking about satellites that can't be entered directly, but like you said you don't have 100% of the channels anyway. Cool app anyway, unfortunately even if I had the time or knowledge to do such a project, much of the stuff I would like to ReplayTV record would be wildfeed stuff so the guide wouldn't help much there.

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	Turls

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 8:50:00
Message: Body:	This is true, the program can also fire off its own timers but I have only done that once for a feed.

From:	KITANO8 -(KITANO8)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 4:44:00
Message: Body:	I guess my question should have been more specific, in the sense that I was curious about Tivo or Replay systems program guiides having the information on programming that is available on C Band. As a previous message had mentioned, it would be a great help to be able to tell the unit to record all broadcasts of a given show and then have it be smart enough to catch the network and wild feed broadcasts of that show. So if I'm understanding everyone, this is not possible and probably won't ever be. To use a digital recorders programming features you either need a small dish or cable. Correct ?

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 4:44:00

Message:
Body:

I guess my question should have been more specific, in the sense that I was curious about Tivo or Replay systems program guiides having the information on programming that is available on C Band.
As a previous message had mentioned, it would be a great help to be able to tell the unit to record all broadcasts of a given show and then have it be smart enough to catch the network and wild feed broadcasts of that show.
So if I'm understanding everyone, this is not possible and probably won't ever be. To use a digital recorders programming features you either need a small dish or cable. Correct ?

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	KITANO8

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 2:42:00
Message: Body:	>>>> I guess my question should have been more specific, in the sense that I was curious about Tivo or Replay systems program guiides having the information on programming that is available on C Band <<<< Over 95% which is on LSD is gotten from C-Band, So if DirecTV shows it to be on at 8:00pm then it's on C-Band at 8:00pm, So on - so on. >>>> So if I'm understanding everyone, this is not possible and probably won't ever be. To use a digital recorders programming features you either need a small dish or cable. Correct ? <<<< I believe you're right on this, As won't ever be, It's just a too small of market, I do think it can be done, With a small add on box between TiVo or Replay and your 4DTV receiver, So all that what this could work. There's work around right now if you wish, As you set timer on 4DTV so TiVo or RePlay is recording right show. If you desire this "Auto Record Find Thing" then Small Dish or Cable is it, with a "Local Ant" if you wish, That way a least network are to be where TiVo/RePlay "thinks it's there" when it's there, But that works for C-Band too.

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 2:42:00

Message:
Body:

>>>> I guess my question should have been more specific, in the sense that I was curious about Tivo or Replay systems program guiides having the information on programming that is available on C Band <<<<

Over 95% which is on LSD is gotten from C-Band, So if DirecTV shows it to be on at 8:00pm then it's on C-Band at 8:00pm, So on - so on.

>>>> So if I'm understanding everyone, this is not possible and probably won't ever be. To use a digital recorders programming features you either need a small dish or cable. Correct ? <<<<

I believe you're right on this, As won't ever be, It's just a too small of market, I do think it can be done, With a small add on box between TiVo or Replay and your 4DTV receiver, So all that what this could work. There's work around right now if you wish, As you set timer on 4DTV so TiVo or RePlay is recording right show.

If you desire this "Auto Record Find Thing" then Small Dish or Cable is it, with a "Local Ant" if you wish, That way a least network are to be where TiVo/RePlay "thinks it's there" when it's there, But that works for C-Band too.

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	KITANO8

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 2:39:00
Message: Body:	You are correct in that is won't get wildfeeds and the like. I don't think they would ever do that even IF they did 4DTV simply because wildfeeds tend to be all over the place and move around. The manual labor involved in that would be a heavy hit (especially for Replay who offers their guide for free).

From:	KITANO8 -(KITANO8)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 3:59:00
Message: Body:	Thats pretty much what I expected, but I figured I make sure before I made any decisions. Thanks for the info.

From:	AJCHERRY -(AJCHERRY)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 7:31:00
Message: Body:	Wow, cool hack! I'm going to try to do the same sort of thing with a TiVO and an analog C-band system. Is the serial protocol used by DirecTV documented anywhere, or did you have to reverse-engineer it yourself? Could you provide any info on the control sequences used, or a pointer to somewhere that details the protocol? Thanks! -Andrew

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 7:31:00

Message:
Body:

Wow, cool hack! I'm going to try to do the same sort of thing with a TiVO and an analog C-band system.

Is the serial protocol used by DirecTV documented anywhere, or did you have to reverse-engineer it yourself? Could you provide any info on the control sequences used, or a pointer to somewhere that details the protocol?

Thanks!

-Andrew

From:	hermit2 -(hermit2)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 11:53:00
Message: Body:	Another option if Flyboys master tweaking doesn't appeal to you, Get an S-VHS VCR(they are really down in price now), they still offer 400 lines of resolution for a nice picture and you can run either composite or s video hookup thru one and although you lose the pause feature of the tivo, it comes back when watching the tape. The JVC 9500 also has a great filter for ota broadcast viewing.

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	AJCHERRY

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 2:24:00
Message: Body:	Sitting here at work I vaguely remember what I found out. If my memory serves me (cheap Iron Chef ripoff) 2 numbers are sent seperated by a space, the first is multiplied by 255 and added to the second. I will confirm this when I get home. This is out of a Showstopper Not Tivo, If Tivo does have a serial out for the same purpose it would be the same.

From:	AJCHERRY -(AJCHERRY)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 7:32:00
Message: Body:	Thanks! I'll play with my TiVo and see what kind of codes it produces (should be the same). The hard part will probably be getting my Monterey 55 to move the dish / change channels correctly. -Andrew

From:	W0KIE -(REYNOLDSM)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 8:33:00
Message: Body:	TiVos are not really compatible with 4DTVs. TiVo's work mostly well with DTV and great with cable. I do NOT recommend TiVo since they started insering non erasable ads on the main TiVo Central menu.

From:	John Colombo -(JDC1956)	TO:	AJCHERRY

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 1:31:00
Message: Body:	Actually, it should be EASIER to do this with the Monty, since you can set up 100 favorite channels that you can get to by a series of three IR codes (FAV, #, #). No need to monitor the motor line because the Monty will go directly to the satellite/transponder selected by the favorite. I suggested many moons ago that Motorola include a similar feature for the 4DTV. The reason for this is to automate channel selection for sophisticated home theaters. I have a Philips Pronto remote, and simply have a list of channels on the remote - so when someone in the family who is not familiar with the intricacies of BUD operation wants to watch, say, Comedy West, they just punch the button for Comedy West on the remote and the Pronto sends out the FAV code to the Monterey. Such "one-button" operation is a standard control interface for complicated home theaters that use sophisticated remotes like the Pronto or Crestron/AMX touchscreen systems. And doing it can't require much in the way of firmware programming. You can do something similar with the 4DTV unit by using the guide, but the macro becomes very involved. The steps are Guide, then SAT, then satellite code (e.g., 5, 5 for G5), then Enter, then channel number in three digits (e.g., 022 for CNN/Headline), followed by Enter. If your Guide is updated, this macro sequence will call up the guide, then call up CNN/H in the guide, and then the last "Enter" tells the system to select CNN/H, which moves the dish and selects the channel. But this macro only works if your guide is updated nightly. If you don't have guide info, the macro will stall because you will get the "Guide Info Available on G0" screen of death. Flyboy's idea of having a computer monitor the motor line is nifty, but you can only do this with a computer. John C.

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 1:31:00

Message:
Body:

Actually, it should be EASIER to do this with the Monty, since you can set up 100 favorite channels that you can get to by a series of three IR codes (FAV, #, #). No need to monitor the motor line because the Monty will go directly to the satellite/transponder selected by the favorite.

I suggested many moons ago that Motorola include a similar feature for the 4DTV. The reason for this is to automate channel selection for sophisticated home theaters. I have a Philips Pronto remote, and simply have a list of channels on the remote - so when someone in the family who is not familiar with the intricacies of BUD operation wants to watch, say, Comedy West, they just punch the button for Comedy West on the remote and the Pronto sends out the FAV code to the Monterey. Such "one-button" operation is a standard control interface for complicated home theaters that use sophisticated remotes like the Pronto or Crestron/AMX touchscreen systems. And doing it can't require much in the way of firmware programming.

You can do something similar with the 4DTV unit by using the guide, but the macro becomes very involved. The steps are Guide, then SAT, then satellite code (e.g., 5, 5 for G5), then Enter, then channel number in three digits (e.g., 022 for CNN/Headline), followed by Enter. If your Guide is updated, this macro sequence will call up the guide, then call up CNN/H in the guide, and then the last "Enter" tells the system to select CNN/H, which moves the dish and selects the channel.

But this macro only works if your guide is updated nightly. If you don't have guide info, the macro will stall because you will get the "Guide Info Available on G0" screen of death.

Flyboy's idea of having a computer monitor the motor line is nifty, but you can only do this with a computer.

John C.

From:	AJCHERRY -(AJCHERRY)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-3 8:11:00
Message: Body:	FYI, I've found more detailed information about the DirecTV serial control codes, including error return codes. These should be useful in fleshing out the control program, especially if you don't have an actual DirecTV unit to play with (I don't). http://www.isd.net/mevenmo/sonydsscodes.html -Andrew

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 8:11:00

Message:
Body:

FYI, I've found more detailed information about the DirecTV
serial control codes, including error return codes. These should
be useful in fleshing out the control program, especially if you
don't have an actual DirecTV unit to play with (I don't).

http://www.isd.net/mevenmo/sonydsscodes.html

-Andrew

From:	WA4OTJ -(WA4OTJ)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 6:39:00

Message:
Body:

This sounds like a natural project for a Basic Stamp or
similar microcontroller.

Serial in, IR out, Motor Sense.

Tell Tivo that it's controlling a DSS via serial port.
Then do a lookup from the DSS command to the corresponding
Tivo sequenct, and process as required.

I wonder how many folks would pay, say $99, for a box
to do this?

Where do we get the information for the translation?
Guess I could put a scope on the Tivo serial port and
record what it sends. Lot of work if someone has
already figured that part out......

Interest level???????

-Nat

From:	MHBROWN19 -(MHBROWN19)	TO:	WA4OTJ

Date Posted:

2002-4-3 10:57:00

Message:
Body:

I know Flyboy172 (sp?) is already doing something similar, but I haven't seen him post a web page with details.

Check out http://www.isd.net/mevenmo/sonydsscodes.html. This page already has most (if not all) the dss serial codes. This along with software sitting on a pc to perform the translation and IR hardware (like the irlink from smarthome.com which has probe inputs for motor actuator pulse detection) would work great. This is infact what I have and I am currently writing the transalation stuff in VB.