From:	MHBROWN19 -(MHBROWN19)	TO:	ALL

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 5:15:00
Message: Body:	I have seen some posts related to this but since becoming a 4dtv user several months ago I could not find a concrete application to allow me to use my Tivo (and it's guide information) to 'tune' my 4dtv. Since I was retiring a RCA Ultimatetv system and I couldn't see losing the functionality it gave me so I wrote the necessary software to do the 'translation'. First, the requirements: DSR-905, DSR 920, or DSR-922 A Tivo (or ReplayTV). A PC running Windows 95 or later and two Communication Ports. An IR blaster (specifically the Smarthome IR1623PC - http://www.smarthome.com/1623PC.html) The operation is pretty simple, for those not familiar with Tivo, it gets information about the channels to offer you and their program information from the the setup information you give it. Now unfortunately Tivo does not have a channel lineup defined for 4DTV so when setting up your Tivo you need to tell it you have a system that will offer as many channels as possible (example Directv). You also need to tell Tivo how it should communicate these channel changes to the external tuner. You can select between Serial and IR Blaster, you will select Serial. Now, whenever Tivo wants to display a channel in your lineup it sends the command to select that channel via it's serial port using a protocol established to communicate with DirecTV receivers. In this case the serial port on the Tivo is connected to the above mentioned PC running my program, the program emulates a Directv receiver and sends Tivo the response it expects. The program then translates the channel number Tivo sent into a Satellite/Channel number combination on the 4DTV. It then sends to the Smarthome IR blaster (using the 2nd of the 2 Comm Ports) the proper remote control command to select the satellite and tune the channel. The translation of Tivo Channel number to 4DTV Satellite/Channel is done via a comma delimited text file that can be updated for changes in lineup and to handle additional channels not present in the Tivo lineup (for things such as wildfeeds). Of course there will be no guide info for those channels, but it provides an easy placeholder for scheduling a recording using the Tivo. The software is currently controling my Chaparral M100C+ and DSR-905, and while I have not tested it with a 922 or 920 the IR commands and timings that are sent to the 4DTV receiver are configurable, allowing for easy tweaking if necessary. Of course the down side to this is the PC component, but with the cost of used low end PCs being what they are, this isn't too bad and can frequently be had for <$200. If there is enough interest I could easily write a DOS version which would have much smaller OS requirements (and probably run right from a floppy). There are also IR blaster 'kits' available for 20-30 dollars and but the one from smarthome does quite a bit more for not much more money (in particular it has probes that can sense AC, LED activity etc.). If there is sufficient interest I will setup a web page with formal docs and setup instructions. Mike

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 5:15:00

Message:
Body:

I have seen some posts related to this but since becoming a 4dtv user several months ago I could not find a concrete application to allow me to use my Tivo (and it's guide information) to 'tune' my 4dtv. Since I was retiring a RCA Ultimatetv system and I couldn't see losing the functionality it gave me so I wrote the necessary software to do the 'translation'.

First, the requirements:

DSR-905, DSR 920, or DSR-922
A Tivo (or ReplayTV).
A PC running Windows 95 or later and two Communication Ports.
An IR blaster (specifically the Smarthome IR1623PC - http://www.smarthome.com/1623PC.html)

The operation is pretty simple, for those not familiar with Tivo, it gets information about the channels to offer you and their program information from the the setup information you give it. Now unfortunately Tivo does not have a channel lineup defined for 4DTV so when setting up your Tivo you need to tell it you have a system that will offer as many channels as possible (example Directv). You also need to tell Tivo how it should communicate these channel changes to the external tuner. You can select between Serial and IR Blaster, you will select Serial.

Now, whenever Tivo wants to display a channel in your lineup it sends the command to select that channel via it's serial port using a protocol established to communicate with DirecTV receivers. In this case the serial port on the Tivo is connected to the above mentioned PC running my program, the program emulates a Directv receiver and sends Tivo the response it expects. The program then translates the channel number Tivo sent into a Satellite/Channel number combination on the 4DTV. It then sends to the Smarthome IR blaster (using the 2nd of the 2 Comm Ports) the proper remote control command to select the satellite and tune the channel. The translation of Tivo Channel number to 4DTV Satellite/Channel is done via a comma delimited text file that can be updated for changes in lineup and to handle additional channels not present in the Tivo lineup (for things such as wildfeeds). Of course there will be no guide info for those channels, but it provides an easy placeholder for scheduling a recording using the Tivo.

The software is currently controling my Chaparral M100C+ and DSR-905, and while I have not tested it with a 922 or 920 the IR commands and timings that are sent to the 4DTV receiver are configurable, allowing for easy tweaking if necessary.

Of course the down side to this is the PC component, but with the cost of used low end PCs being what they are, this isn't too bad and can frequently be had for <$200. If there is enough interest I could easily write a DOS version which would have much smaller OS requirements (and probably run right from a floppy).

There are also IR blaster 'kits' available for 20-30 dollars and but the one from smarthome does quite a bit more for not much more money (in particular it has probes that can sense AC, LED activity etc.).

If there is sufficient interest I will setup a web page with formal docs and setup instructions.

Mike

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	MHBROWN19

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 8:35:00
Message: Body:	Pretty much the exact thing I do for replaytv but I also monitor the actuator voltage to tell the computer when the changing of sats has finished. Seems to be about the only strategy we have thus far but it works flawlessly. Too bad we dont get the whole guide with all the HBO feeds and such :-( Damn DirectTv, ain't even good for that. Mine is a dos app so I can use the most busted up crap computer I can find :-)

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 8:35:00

Message:
Body:

Pretty much the exact thing I do for replaytv but I also monitor the actuator voltage to tell the computer when the changing of sats has finished. Seems to be about the only strategy we have thus far but it works flawlessly. Too bad we dont get the whole guide with all the HBO feeds and such :-( Damn DirectTv, ain't even good for that. Mine is a dos app so I can use the most busted up crap computer I can find :-)

From:	MHBROWN19 -(MHBROWN19)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 2:00:00
Message: Body:	Yeah, I got around the voltage thing because the Chaparral is computer controlled via the serial port as well so there is no guess work. What is the real benefit to the voltage sensor in your situation? Doesn't the 920/922 buffer IR commands so you don't have to 'wait' until it is on the new sat? I know the 905 works this way (granted it is not moving the dish itself). Mike

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	MHBROWN19

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 3:22:00
Message: Body:	If it is a short hop, like one sat it will do it sometimes. But if it goes any distance then no, on mine at least, it doesn't buffer the commands.

From:	MHBROWN19 -(MHBROWN19)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 3:34:00
Message: Body:	I will have to try it with the pulse sensor addon for the smarthome when my 920 gets back from service.

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	MHBROWN19

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 5:52:00
Message: Body:	You may not need the voltage sensor. I had a similar problem when trying to set up 1-button tuning of 4DTV stations on an AMX touchpad. The trick that worked for me was to bring up the guide before selecting the bird and channel. That way the 920 does the necessary buffering. Try it with a remote and you'll see what I mean. (Actually, the bulletproof way to do it is to bring up the change guide screen and choose all, otherwise the active guide might not include the station you want.)

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 5:52:00

Message:
Body:

You may not need the voltage sensor. I had a similar problem when trying to set up 1-button tuning of 4DTV stations on an AMX touchpad. The trick that worked for me was to bring up the guide before selecting the bird and channel. That way the 920 does the necessary buffering. Try it with a remote and you'll see what I mean.

(Actually, the bulletproof way to do it is to bring up the change guide screen and choose all, otherwise the active guide might not include the station you want.)

From:	FLYBOY172 -(FLYBOY172)	TO:	DIRECTVIEWER

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 2:28:00
Message: Body:	Bringing up the guide sure puts the receiver through its paces and makes for quite a long channel change. Especially since a voltage sensor consists of nothing more then either a small relay or a transistor and a few extra lines of code to handle the signal.

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	FLYBOY172

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 12:27:00
Message: Body:	>>> Bringing up the guide sure puts the receiver through its paces and makes for quite a long channel change. <<< Yes, and you have to account for a delay that the "Sat Guide" will that I found somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 seconds needed. If Delay is too short sometime sat info is not received, Same is true with channel data, Delay is needed here too, Short, You may miss data. 4DTV doesn't give you any check sums, That would be nice. But that would require serial not IR control.

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 12:27:00

Message:
Body:

>>> Bringing up the guide sure puts the receiver through its paces and makes for quite a long channel change. <<<

Yes, and you have to account for a delay that the "Sat Guide" will that I found somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 seconds needed. If Delay is too short sometime sat info is not received, Same is true with channel data, Delay is needed here too, Short, You may miss data.

4DTV doesn't give you any check sums, That would be nice. But that would require serial not IR control.

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 11:52:00
Message: Body:	Thanks for the insight. I used this approach because I do software, not hardware, and it worked reliably on my 920 with 1 sec delay between key presses in the macro code. But I just installed the 922 a few days ago and the timing problems you mention did indeed mess up the macro. I also keep track of the current bird and if I'm only changing channels (which is often the case) the code bypasses the sat and guide stuff.

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 11:52:00

Message:
Body:

Thanks for the insight. I used this approach because I do software, not hardware, and it worked reliably on my 920 with 1 sec delay between key presses in the macro code. But I just installed the 922 a few days ago and the timing problems you mention did indeed mess up the macro.

I also keep track of the current bird and if I'm only changing channels (which is often the case) the code bypasses the sat and guide stuff.

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	DIRECTVIEWER

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 5:27:00
Message: Body:	LOL, >>> I also keep track of the current bird and if I'm only changing channels (which is often the case) the code bypasses the sat and guide stuff. <<< I just added this to my PIC program for the same reason :-) Yes before I read this, Funny how the mind works..... Steve P.S. Funny I think that channel changes can be faster than TiVo can show it.... A little funny delay there :-)

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 5:27:00

Message:
Body:

LOL,

>>> I also keep track of the current bird and if I'm only changing channels (which is often the case) the code bypasses the sat and guide stuff. <<<

I just added this to my PIC program for the same reason :-)
Yes before I read this, Funny how the mind works.....

Steve

P.S. Funny I think that channel changes can be faster than TiVo can show it.... A little funny delay there :-)

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 7:24:00
Message: Body:	DIRECTVIEWER Have you added a "Programming Step" too stop it redoing channel change after TiVo does a record (it resends channel data). If you look for "Sat data" of the same, add "Channel data" also of the same.. Then you can remove this Sat Display / Channel change, I added this so if it comes down agian it IR send's a VIEW KEY. Try this, It's cool :-)

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 7:24:00

Message:
Body:

DIRECTVIEWER

Have you added a "Programming Step" too stop it redoing channel change after TiVo does a record (it resends channel data). If you look for "Sat data" of the same, add "Channel data" also of the same..

Then you can remove this Sat Display / Channel change, I added this so if it comes down agian it IR send's a VIEW KEY.

Try this, It's cool :-)

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 11:27:00
Message: Body:	Steve, No, I haven't done that because I'm not yet actually using a Tivo to control the 4DTV. I'm using an AMX control system and I want to be able to select channels with a single "button" push on the AMX touchpad. Both applications have the problem of buffering during the time it takes to change birds, which is why I'm interested in this thread.

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	DIRECTVIEWER

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 2:49:00
Message: Body:	DIRECTVIEWER >>> I'm using an AMX control system and I want to be able to select channels with a single "button" push on the AMX touchpad <<< Well that sounds like more money to be using that... My box control is small, works great... Steve

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 2:49:00

Message:
Body:

DIRECTVIEWER

>>> I'm using an AMX control system and I want to be able to select channels with a single "button" push on the AMX touchpad <<<

Well that sounds like more money to be using that...

My box control is small, works great...

Steve

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 11:50:00
Message: Body:	>>>Well that sounds like more money to be using that... Certainly. It's a controller for the complete AV system I have in my office (big dish, DTivo, VCR, DVD, AV processor, scaler, projector, lights, screen, shades, computer, RGB switcher). Things would be kind of complex to operate without it. I could get by without it but earth people would find it daunting, I think.

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	DIRECTVIEWER

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 12:37:00
Message: Body:	DIRECTVIEWER That sounds cool, I can see my self getting one of those in the future some day. I just need the house and or the "Set up" like that to make it all work :-) Q can that also do the "Database" needed for TiVo to 4DTV (Big dish as you call) as you need for channel crossing ? Steve

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 12:37:00

Message:
Body:

DIRECTVIEWER

That sounds cool, I can see my self getting one of those in the future some day. I just need the house and or the "Set up" like that to make it all work :-)

Q can that also do the "Database" needed for TiVo to 4DTV (Big dish as you call) as you need for channel crossing ?

Steve

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 7:33:00
Message: Body:	>>Q can that also do the "Database" needed for TiVo to 4DTV (Big dish as you call) as you need for channel crossing ? It would depend on how much memory you needed, as (my model at least) doesn't have access to a hard drive. I keep a table of all the movie channels, for example, in which I map from a button-press to a bird and channel number (and whether it is digital, hi-def, or analog). There are about 80 or so entries in the table, but I have room for a lot more, so perhaps you could do your Tivo mapping that way.

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 7:33:00

Message:
Body:

>>Q can that also do the "Database" needed for TiVo to 4DTV (Big dish as you call) as you need for channel crossing ?

It would depend on how much memory you needed, as (my model at least) doesn't have access to a hard drive. I keep a table of all the movie channels, for example, in which I map from a button-press to a bird and channel number (and whether it is digital, hi-def, or analog). There are about 80 or so entries in the table, but I have room for a lot more, so perhaps you could do your Tivo mapping that way.

From:	DIRECTVIEWER -(DIRECTVIEWER)	TO:	Steve

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 9:29:00
Message: Body:	>>Yes, and you have to account for a delay that the "Sat Guide" will that I found somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 seconds needed. If Delay is too short sometime sat info is not received, Same is true with channel data, Delay is needed here too, Short, You may miss data. I had another thought on this one but I'm not a satellite expert so it might not work. Would it be possible to count location clicks? In other words, is the time-per-click of the dish movement linear, or does it vary at different parts of the arc? If linear, it should be easy to keep a table of satellite "click numbers" and: 1. calculate the click difference between the current sat and the one you want 2. multiply it by your actuator's "time-per-click" 3. add in a second or so for start-up (if your system needs it) and 4. wait the calculated time before sending the channel number. Will this work, do you think?

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 9:29:00

Message:
Body:

>>Yes, and you have to account for a delay that the "Sat Guide" will that I found somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 seconds needed. If Delay is too short sometime sat info is not received, Same is true with channel data, Delay is needed here too, Short, You may miss data.

I had another thought on this one but I'm not a satellite expert so it might not work. Would it be possible to count location clicks? In other words, is the time-per-click of the dish movement linear, or does it vary at different parts of the arc?

If linear, it should be easy to keep a table of satellite "click numbers" and:

1. calculate the click difference between the current sat and the one you want

2. multiply it by your actuator's "time-per-click"

3. add in a second or so for start-up (if your system needs it) and

4. wait the calculated time before sending the channel number.

Will this work, do you think?

From:	Steve -(DISNEYJOE7)	TO:	DIRECTVIEWER

Date Posted:	2002-4-4 4:21:00
Message: Body:	DIRECTVIEWER.. First sorry for the delay in response, Limited net access last week. For memory data only needed about 4k so not much, 900 channels or so 100-999 at this time I don't work with 4 digit channels, But do have program look for these, So a lock up will not happen. >>> Will this work, do you think? <<< Yes Nice idea, But I don't think that is needed, Will take too many lines / code to run... My delay is just to get the "Sat Table" to show, That delay does seem long at times. Sat table display at time's can be a longer delay. So 2 seconds may work at times, 3 or so may be needed at times. Delay between Satellite Birds, is controlled by the "Clicks" Programmed to count clicks, When it stops "Short Delay" needed (Just to make sure) Then on to Channel Change. This delay is very short like 80ms or so, You would never miss it :-) Steve

Date Posted:

2002-4-4 4:21:00

Message:
Body:

DIRECTVIEWER..

First sorry for the delay in response, Limited net access last week.

For memory data only needed about 4k so not much, 900 channels or so
100-999 at this time I don't work with 4 digit channels, But do have program look for these, So a lock up will not happen.

>>> Will this work, do you think? <<<

Yes

Nice idea, But I don't think that is needed, Will take too many lines / code to run...

My delay is just to get the "Sat Table" to show, That delay does seem long at times. Sat table display at time's can be a longer delay. So 2 seconds may work at times, 3 or so may be needed at times.

Delay between Satellite Birds, is controlled by the "Clicks"
Programmed to count clicks, When it stops "Short Delay" needed (Just to make sure) Then on to Channel Change. This delay is very short like 80ms or so, You would never miss it :-)

Steve